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Check out this nitwit #605057
03/05/2020 03:28
03/05/2020 03:28
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mikezpen Offline OP
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https://www.foxnews.com/us/new-jers...utbreak-f-each-and-every-trump-supporter

An overgrown Rutgers associate professor of something called "Women’s, Gender and Sexuality Studies" makes the following brilliant observations. This bloated fool is "teaching" kids!


“F--- each and every Trump supporter. You absolutely did this. You are to blame,” (for Covid).

"I have tenure. Rutgers won't be firing me for tweets." (of course not)

She writes that recent efforts to reopen the country following stay-at-home orders were “all about a gross necropolitical calculation that it is Black people who are dying disproportionately from COVID.” (damn slick of whitey, don't you think?) necropolitical calculation??-I bet she coined that one.

"“They are literally willing to die from this clusterf---ed COVID response rather than admit absolutely anybody other than him [Trump] would have been a better president,” she wrote. “And when whiteness has a death wish, we are all in for a serious problem.” (I honestly don't understand the last sentence, but I gather she had a problem with whiteness-and white people in general not surprising)

"But the depths of white depravity — the adamant refusal to be swayed by facts, reason or the value of life itself, especially when those lives are Black — it staggers me."

AND THIS IS A REAL BEAUTY! Cooper has a history of criticizing President Trump. Last October she asserted the president’s policies were partly to blame for weight problems among African-American women. (!!!!) She ought to look in the mirror (if she can fit all of herself in) to fix blame for that one.


Joe Biden has spent his entire life trying to succeed in presidential politics,and now he has. Too bad he’s not there to enjoy it.
Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605060
03/05/2020 16:24
03/05/2020 16:24
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These are the people who are teaching the next generation, and the taxpayers are funding it. It's time to stop.

This is nothing but pure racist hate.


Progressives lack compassion and tolerance. Their self-aggrandizement is all that matters.
Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605063
04/05/2020 18:48
04/05/2020 18:48
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Hillary's Vast Right-Wing Cons...
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mikezpen Offline OP
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Why do you think kids come out of college loving the left?


Joe Biden has spent his entire life trying to succeed in presidential politics,and now he has. Too bad he’s not there to enjoy it.
Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605065
05/05/2020 08:06
05/05/2020 08:06
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Probably because they study the facts of how society is structured and how reasonable structures and systemic solutions are ignored?
Gee it's fun to be outraged by specific profs among the thousands out there.
Sure, mikezpen's Rutgers prof seems wacko.
My point (and I do have one) is that I could list the comments from rightys that are as nutty.
The difference being that many are past or presently part of the administration or listened to by the chief pooperoo.
Alex Jones by himself broadcasts far more nuttiness to millions than the total faculty of leftist bent at hundreds of schools.

So why are they ignored by mzp & TBP? Because they don't pass the lefty nut filter. And because the sources read by the above have an agenda to publicize that which ramps up righty outrage.
If there had been even one post by them here that spoke to wacko rightys there might be some justification for the outrage they express.

And having attended one Ivy league and two (presumably lefty) midwest schools (Oberlin & CWRU) I can attest that the personal politics of profs had little to do with what they taught.
The one prof whose politics I really remember was an appreciator of Facism who taught at Oberlin.
My kids attended U. of Chicago, Clark U. and Boston Univ. a lot more recently. U. of Chicago made my son a Catholic and an appreciator of St Augustine.
Clark/Boston U. got my daughter to go into the Peace Corps and then Public Health. Oh those insidious lefties!

I expect no answer other than a reiteration that faculty are overwhelmingly lefty.


Never give a sucker an even break. - W.C. Fields -
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Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605067
05/05/2020 09:47
05/05/2020 09:47
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Alex Jones is on the right? Really? Most on the right think he's an idiot; some think he's a plant. He is NOT any variety of conservative or libertarian.


Progressives lack compassion and tolerance. Their self-aggrandizement is all that matters.
Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605068
05/05/2020 09:49
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Pogo, Michelle Malkin is an Oberlin alumna, and she would utterly disagree with you about the professors' politics.

It's likely that you don't notice it for the same reason you don't notice the bias in the media: it is pretty much the same as yours, and they reflect each other. It's hard for us to see biases in those who share ours.


Progressives lack compassion and tolerance. Their self-aggrandizement is all that matters.
Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605069
05/05/2020 09:50
05/05/2020 09:50
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And BTW, we've had this discussion before. Fascism is a form of socialism. The difference between fascism and communism is the difference between maroon and burgundy.


Progressives lack compassion and tolerance. Their self-aggrandizement is all that matters.
Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605070
05/05/2020 09:52
05/05/2020 09:52
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And BTW, study after study, poll after poll shows that faculty at most "institutions of higher learning" are heavily leftist -- not just liberal, but leftist. There are a handful of exceptions to that, and being the exception is one of the reasons they stand out.


Progressives lack compassion and tolerance. Their self-aggrandizement is all that matters.
Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605071
05/05/2020 09:54
05/05/2020 09:54
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Hillary's Vast Right-Wing Cons...
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mikezpen Offline OP
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And he's not polluting the minds of impressionable college kids and being paid to do it. You don't have tune in to Alex Jones. Maybe some profs who taught you seemed perfectly rational because you were already to the left yourself, but they might have been liberal as hell.


Joe Biden has spent his entire life trying to succeed in presidential politics,and now he has. Too bad he’s not there to enjoy it.
Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605073
05/05/2020 11:11
05/05/2020 11:11
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Timmer,
I appreciate your reiterating the statement that faculty is predominantly leftist.
It's always nice when somebody says exactly what you predict they will.

A few points.
1. You really don't get it. I never spoke to the personal politics of college faculty. I attended Oberlin. I knew quite a few of the faculty. I would bet that if I took a poll of
the causes that faculty support you would find more supported things that you and mikezpen would class as liberal or leftist, than things that I would class as conservative or right wing.
But the point is that I would have to bet as to their personal politics. When I took courses there was no illustrative bias in what was taught.
The Government department was the most prestigious and was led by Robert Tufts, most famous for being the major thinker working for George Marshall designing the Marshall Plan.
By today's standards I know that would make him a liberal. History, which was my major, discussed how and why societies developed, in the context of what actually happened. Not taught by any of my professors
via ideology. Your person "who attended Oberlin" may have had a different experience. My son didn't get a lot of idealogical stuff at U. of C. But if he were an economics major, he certainly would have.

2. And before I read you saying it, I certainly knew the right wing dismissal of Fascism (or for that matter racist and anti-semetic groups) as being inherently socialist &/or leftist. Your reiteration doesn't make it true.
Of course conservatives want to separate themselves from something that if they have any principles, they abhor.
Here you are talking about something that I actually have knowledge. I could go into the history of how fascism developed in European countries. And certainly into the history of socialism here and elsewhere.
Communism and Fascism share a lot of characteristics. Democratic Socialism does not. They are all populist when out of power, using the standard definition of populism,
"A political approach that strives to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are disregarded by established elite groups." Of course that definition also includes Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders.

But Communism in power is no more Socialist than you are. And both it and Facism in power are the antithesis of populist. They are run by and for elites. With no recourse or real dissent.

Again, the point is that you have a filter that seems to only see or find things that reinforce your attitudes. I may have the same problem. But picking out wackos is easy in our diverse society. They are out there.
You deny Jones is a conservative. Okay, then you should abhor the love Trump has for him. Assuming the accuracy of mikezpen's description, I'll deny that his prof is actually of the left. Real politics should be grounded in reality. She does not seem to be.

Last edited by pogo; 05/05/2020 17:02.

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Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605074
05/05/2020 16:33
05/05/2020 16:33
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I can show you lost of examples of how their leftism, even Marxism, shows up in their courses. You don't see it because you're on the left.

Fascists and progressives got ideas from each other. Fascism is inherently socialist, as it is built on government control of the economy. It maintains the fiction of private property, but through government policy, regulation, high taxes, and other activities, the government completely controls the use of it, thus making the state the de facto owner.

Further, the so-called "alt-right" follows the doctrines of Aleksandr Dugin and his Fourth Political Theory, which is leftist.

Democratic socialism is still socialism. It still rests on redistributionism, which is more akin to the fascist variation of socialism than the communist variation. But all of these are Marxist in origin and at their base. They preach socialist ides, and they put them in practice, to inevitably disastrous results.

#AllSocialistsAreTheSame


Progressives lack compassion and tolerance. Their self-aggrandizement is all that matters.
Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605075
05/05/2020 16:43
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Progressives lack compassion and tolerance. Their self-aggrandizement is all that matters.
Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605077
06/05/2020 10:50
06/05/2020 10:50
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Okay. Let's take a step back.
1. Alex Jones is not on the right because
"Most on the right think he's an idiot; some think he's a plant."
He may indeed be a shrubbery, but the fact that your cohorts (and I) think that he's an idiot does not in any way take away from the fact that he is one of the prime advocates for right wing conspiracy theories and has a huge following.
Including, by the way, Trump. A reality that you did not comment on. Sorry. He's yours.

2. I should deny my own experience at Oberlin because I am of the left and therefore can't see through my biases.
We are talking about an 18-20 year old. Of course I was a well developed leftist at the time I arrived there so I did not notice the insidious leftism that was foisted on me.
Sure there is "leftism" in some courses. As there are all kinds of other isms. My hedonistic roommate at Oberlin got religion. He ended up as a conservative Rabbi. One classmate (Jan Ting) somehow got Republicanism and ended up working for several Republican administrations - and then running for the Senate as the Republican candidate (although when I looked him up I discovered that he had left the party.) It's called education. Left or right educators are not cult leaders. It does not work like that.

3. And your comment about how I do not see pervasive bias in the media?
There is no "Media" other than as a collective noun. Sure there is a pervasive dislike of Trump expressed in articles.
There is also a huge amount of insightful reporting by hard working journalists. And a lot of celebrities think that the administration sucks. Free speech?
But it is the job of actual journalism to investigate and report on the powerful. To attempt to quote Jefferson, if he had to do away with government or the press, he would do away with government.

So believe what you want. But check facts.

I have hesitated from posting links to what I feel to be informative articles because of who posts here and I am strongly of the belief that it would not be read or considered sufficiently to be worth the time.
An example of this would be an article from a few weeks ago in the [b]New Yorker[/b, as certifiably left a journal as exists. It factually discussed how politicians in Seattle listened to actual epidemiologists and lessened the impact
of covid there. It also talks about how they were ignored in the national response - and by mayor deBlasio and Governor Cuomo whose response was to deal politically rather than medically with the crisis until they were forced to react due to the cluster f--- that developed in NY. My point? Sure there is bias. Mostly of choice (and laziness) of what to cover. But blanket dismissal of "The Media" based on attitude? Bushwa.

3. Alexandr Dugin? Since you read the stuff I'll take your word for his being an alt-right poobah. But I doubt that one in a thousand of the members of the alt-right would even recognize the
name. They are creatures of prejudice against those who they are told have and will deny them the right to be what they want to be in a far less than perfect world.
You certainly may reject them as not being of a conservative stripe that you respect. But applied prejudice and lies that have been fostered by politicians and the organized right playing on them was where they came from.

And fascism did indeed develop into states that had many similarities to Soviet & other communism.
But socialism is not communism. And the Michael Harringtons and Dorothy Days of the world looked at Communism and rejected it.
As have the socialists in Europe and elsewhere. Did they succeed in making Nirvana in Europe and elsewhere? No.
Is the average health and access to health care in socialist influenced western Europe better than here? Yup.
Is the increasing stratification and extremes of wealth that have developed here since the tax system and assumptions of government have changed necessary under capitalism?
Nope. You don't have to be redistributionist to look at the figures - and even compare them to that prime anti-capitalist period in this country called the Eisenhower administration.
The Swiss maintain private medicine and social welfare structures in an exceedingly capitalist country. They seem to be doing pretty well.

But ideologues of whatever stripe look to absolutes and cast blame according to their prejudices.


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Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605078
06/05/2020 11:01
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On your articles.
Did you actually read them?
The first two are pretty good and seemingly factual.
The third is interesting, but when even an elderly retired librarian (me) can pick factual holes, selective interpretations and outright distortions it leaves a lot to be desired.


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Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605079
06/05/2020 11:04
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Except about baby kidnapping, which is still ongoing. But not reported.


"On Monday, Memorial Day, we will honor those young men and women who did not believe that being an American meant refusing to inconvenience themselves to help their neighbors.." HCR
Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605088
07/05/2020 12:18
07/05/2020 12:18
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A few points on your points, Pogo. You and I both knew the Cold War, so I refer to that.

#2 "Left or right educators are not cult leaders. It does not work like that."
Why are college graduates so leftist? They go in as typical American kids w/minimal knowledge of historical and economic realities and so many come out experts on both w/leftwing world views. Why is that?
Washrag documents the leftward swing among professors and some among students. It's worse now. A couple of kids may have become religious and conservative, Pogo. But how many have gone the other way?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...essors-thats-hurting-students-education/

#3"But socialism is not communism. And the Michael Harringtons and Dorothy Days of the world looked at Communism and rejected it."
Ok, but I never read of their ilk criticizing it either. And I saw the Dems. go continually apeshit over rightist regimes but almost never the Soviet or Chinese regimes that murdered tens of millions of people and forced more and more countries under their boot.They bitched 24-7 over Apartheid while the Soviets murdered hundreds of thousands in Afghanistan and they said nothing.The media ran South Africa into the ground while ignoring coverage of Afghanistan. One republican Senator, Gordon Humphrey (of New Hampshire maybe?) did a study showing the big networks devoted something like 3 minutes a month to Afghanistan. Dems and media went endlessly wacko over Salvadoran "death squads" while ignoring the Sandinistas' shoving of Indian tribes off their land. You saw it.The left just doesn't criticize the left very much. I'm sure you didn't like the Soviet regime. But when you were around your friends talking politics, or Hollywood celebrities spoke, or then major media opined what did you criticize: Stalin,/Kruschev/Brezhnev?, the Berlin Wall?, Mao?, Pol Pot? Or was it the Contras, South Africa, Pinochet, the Greek Colonels, etc.? I can tell you what the Baltimore Sun, Walter Cronkite, Huntley-Brinkley and the other Democrats I was aware of, did.

And when people are constantly fed one side of the story, their views get distorted. The threat our true enemies pose is forgotten.

One big area where I lean toward the left side is income disparity. I do resent efforts to milk the rich; they deserve whatever they can earn legitimately. Ocasio-Cortez statement that there s/be no billionaires is absurd. But many people can't make it decently on current wages either. Those who work their 40 hours per week s/have a decent standard of living. I don't know how you address it but it needs to be. Medical insurance too.

I also don't consider Fascism or Nazism to be leftist. Rightist dictatorships and leftist dictatorships are both terrible. But there are major differences The rightist dictatorship generally leaves you alone if you shut up and allow yourself to be exploited. The exception is the racist aspect which predominates more on the right. Jews weren't left alone in Germany. But that aside,the left does far more. It tries to change the social order and destroy existing institutions-a facet inherent to leftism's desire to change the world. The most destructive is destruction of private property rights as epitomized by agricultural collectivization in Russia, China and Cambodia which killed millions of people. Also attempts to destroy religion. You didn't even have that in Nazi Germany (Jews excepted) as long as the clergy complied.



Last edited by mikezpen; 07/05/2020 12:43.

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Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605089
07/05/2020 12:41
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Originally Posted by mikezpen
#3"But socialism is not communism. And the Michael Harringtons and Dorothy Days of the world looked at Communism and rejected it."

Ok, but I never read of their ilk criticizing it either.


They weren't communists, but they were anti-anti-Communists. They would spend most of their time criticizing those who attacked Communism. In a sense, those people were mroe dangerous than actual Communists.

The general rule is, "There are no enemies on the left."

#AllSocialistsAreTheSame


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Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605093
07/05/2020 18:20
07/05/2020 18:20
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Thanks mike. You may not appreciate this comment from a proud lefty, but I appreciate your responding to comments on an actual rational basis.
To your first comment. Most college students are of a middle class background. When exposed to the reality of US society they are exposed to a new understanding. People of elite & culturally wide backgrounds may have other experiences.
Dorothy Day and Micheal Harrington were not "Ilk". I regret that you never read The Other America. Robert Kennedy did and it supposedly it affected his beliefs about the nature of America and what he should advocate.
Dorothy Day started a movement that you, a few years ago, stated experience with, having seen the Catholic Worker. They talked about America. And felt that what they were responsible for was what was here. At the same time conservatives acted as if
what happened here was terra ingognita.
Most college kids came from a sequestered background, middle class or higher. They have not been exposed to the idea that society is other than natural. Exposure to a new understanding or (Horrors!) leftist analysis can certainly have affects. I was a little different, Living in France with my engineer father, it was clear that we were accorded a status that was not given to the bulk of non-French residents. Why?

The fact that liberals reacted to some outrages and less to others (I suggest that you have a somewhat selective memory) is a point. I am not here to defend liberals.
The fact that the "left" talked Apartheid can be nothing but to their credit. Ditto "Salvadoran death squads". Should they (Dems) have talked Afghanistan? Or China? At a time that realpolitics espoused by Kissinger et al was the Nixon policy? Dem Reps voted for support for the Afghani rebels. You want all reps to vote to espouse your beliefs. And even more, to be on your side always.
"Or was it the Contras, South Africa, Pinochet, the Greek Colonels, etc.? I can tell you what the Baltimore Sun, Walter Cronkite, Huntley-Brinkley and the other Democrats I was aware of, did.."
To dismiss this less than politely, so? Whatever pressure occurred due to representatives or outside was positive.
So the conservatives in Congress did nothing special on your issues either/ Sorry.

To say that whatever their perspective, they should talk about Pol Pot? Actually I remember lot of talk about Cambodia.
Sure the USA never did anything re that genocidal shithead and his regime. People on the left and the right fulminated. The Vietnamese did act.. Whatever their motives, They overthrew the regime.
I never heard a blip of thank you here from left or right.


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Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605094
07/05/2020 20:31
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Pogo, I think you and I are in about the same age bracket. Whatever your experience was, things have changed a LOT since the time you and I were college students.


Progressives lack compassion and tolerance. Their self-aggrandizement is all that matters.
Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605098
08/05/2020 16:52
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Perhaps quite true.
That is why I quote my kids' experiences. They are now in their 30s.
The point being that a diversity of experience exists.

Before and after my generation people (in the USA) who had the choice and decided to do so concentrated on personal success, work (hopefully) resulting in a a solid income and decent living. That was true of most people, whatever their backgrounds. Whites had more success getting theirs, but it cut across all ethnicities. And social classes. Get a good union job and you had a nice home and income.
No need for college. Just 40 hours wk. - plus overtime.
For that matter, even after hippiedom and alternate lifestyles, Black self awareness and personal awareness (women) there was not have that much long term direct affect on my generation either. But alternatives to previous assumptions were out there. As was the conservative reaction to that lefty ethos.
Anyway. Now the promises and assumptions of justice and opportunity are bubbling out again. As much as I value free speech, accommodation and small d democracy, kids are impatient. As are some of the profs of my kid's generation (& previous)
It ain't a great conspiracy. it's an unfulfilled promise. That again, the words of Robert Zimmerman, should make us aware (I hope) "The times they are a changin."


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Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605125
10/05/2020 14:05
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And additional comments to mikez,

Again, you zoom right by the difference between "leftism" and "Communism." I have critiques of Socialist parties in power in Western Europe, Canada and elsewhere around bureaucracy and some other issues.
But generally they (and the conservatives who share a lot of their social assumptions) are able to provide a network to protect against impact of "income disparity." Some have a lot more than others, but if you provide health care and free education that impact is a lot less.Is it achieved to a certain extent by "Milking the rich?" Yeah. But proposals by that non-socialist, Elizabeth Warren went a long way towards social justice, barely touching the middle class or milking more than a small fraction of the $$$ that companies make, benefiting from our freedoms. And I do not believe that you can cite a single example of the destruction of private property or religion in any country that practices democracy, under socialism or "leftism."

And you should be happy that the Swiss (national character?) seem to have their capitalism and social welfare too. You don't have to be socialist to provide for your citizens. And the left in Sweden is currently a minority government. But with the exception of a tiny group of Fascists, nobody wants to dissolve their social constructs. My biases (national character again?) are such that I think things work better when, since 1970, between 81 and 91% of the electorate voted.

Our winner take all economy seems more innovative. And we pay our medical and other professionals better. But we have a lot more resources to draw on. And as you recognize, it also results in increasing "social disparity."
Now it's working on the middle class - after destroying 80% of family farms. And starving huge sections of the country of those well paid professionals.

You also minimize the nature of Fascism., although you call it "Rightist Dictatorship."
It wasn't just the Jews. It was Gypsies, unionists, homosexuals and anyone who refused to espouse Fascism in Italy and Nazism in Germany.
In the schools, press, churches, and everywhere that dictatorship could control.

Of course if you shut up in China, and aren't Uigur or religious or a dissident, you increasingly can make out there too. This is not a compliment to Communism..
And I am amused that in a "Communist" country, increasingly millionaires/billionaires rise to riches through bribery of the Communist elite - or by getting along so that they can get theirs.


Neither you nor I have talked much about military or religious dictatorships. The why or what. That's a whole different class for another time.


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Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605127
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Re: Nazism/Fascism-Yes, they controlled the press, churches, etc.by telling them what to teach.And they murdered or locked up dissidents. But millions weren't killed by that. Millions were killed by farm collectivization and atrocities like the Cultural Revolution's ideological purification nonsense which shut the whole country down.Rightists on the other hand, generally like power and goodies for themselves and theirs-and the repressed society that allows that state of affairs. I don't think too many authoritarian rightists care about creating a new man or a better society or destroying millions of people to do it. Their goals are thus more limited than those of the left(-I'm not saying more moral here). When the French Estates General national assembly met just before the French Revolution, the ones wanting to keep things the way they were sat on the right. Those wanting change sat on the left.Their goals typified the differences between the two political outlooks that exist to this day. In that case, the left won.

Hence, there are similarities between non-Communist leftism and Communism.Both are dissatisfied with the way society is and want to change it-although the former takes a more graduated, nonviolent approach that respects rights. However the left does have an affinity w/Communist regimes-hence their ongoing love for Castro.People in Cuba have no more rights than they did in Chile under Pinochet, but the former wasn't criticized while the latter was.

We can argue back and forth on this, and whether the non-Communist left was sufficiently critical of Communism. I don't think they were, and that affected our policies. The most blatant example of the latter was WWII here Roosevelt and Ike wanted a broad, deliberate military advance in Europe while the far more astute Churchill wanted a fast,narrow drive into Germany, and earlier, an attack thru the Balkans to keep Eastern Europe from the Russians. He failed, but his brain was in the right place. He was far more prescient about Stalin than the liberal and utterly naive FDR.I remember the Dems, continually fighting Reagan because his policies were hurting the "peace process," nuke reduction talks and such,w/the Soviets.Like that actually mattered. They never learned that the SU was a criminal regime bent on dominating as much of the world as possible, and those goals never changed till the end when it was collapsing.

You make an interesting point on China. Is their Communist regime actually a "rightist" one in some ways now? Mao ravaged China to change it, but now we have a new elite that w/keep things the same. (A bunch of crazy rich Asians run the place?). Would a democratic movement to re-establish political and property rights and break up collectives be leftist? You mite have a cause there, Pogo. grin



Last edited by mikezpen; 11/05/2020 08:40.

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Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605129
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We could bandy numbers, but with an exhaustive five minute 🙄 search I found figures of direct murder by the Nazis totaling 11 million, with 85 million also killed in WWII. Which I have no compunction saying were Nazi/Fascist deaths. . (Includes 15-20 million Chinese. Give those to the Japanese.)
I do think that it was more callousness to human life rather than deliberate murder that accounted for most of the Chinese deaths under Mao. But as a moral figure (Sherman Potter) said, "The dead don't care why they died."
Deaths by deliberate action under Communist regimes, including semi-deliberate famine, are given at 80 to 110 million, with 100 million being the most cited figure. Half or more of those were in China.
But this is not a debate. We do not differ in our hatred for those regimes.

Being "dissatisfied" is not an equation of guilt in any way. Nor are the military differences between Churchill and FDR. Churchill was a horrible military strategist. Nobody can deny that both he and FDR wanted the war to end soonest.
Churchill was more ready to fight the next war. FDR was one at a time. But Churchill was also ready to control, milk and colonize more than half the world himself. "I did not become his majesty's First Minister to preside over the dissolution of the British Empire."
Do you want to include that history as some sort of Conservative guilt? Including massacres and deliberate famines in India?
FDR also withstood the continuous pressure from Stalin to open a Western Front immediately.

I don't consider the institutional Democratic party as being particularly left. But soft on China or the USSR? 😂 It was they who attacked the Kissinger opening to China without any guarantees of policy change.
As I remember, Kissinger was more anti-USSR than pro-China. He just did not care about history if he could play one against the other.

And you again equate a blind or uncaring ignorance (which I do not think is accurate) with some sort of guilt on the "left". Concerned about righty crap here and abroad? Yup. That is to their (our?) credit. Not sufficiently aware of Communist terror?
I'll give that to all stripes as it is action that counts. But it is the Democratic left that is first attacked by both Fascists and Communists in power as they offer alternatives to injustice and dictatorships of whatever kind.

This entire conversation while sort of interesting is beside the point. It is using "history" of whatever sort to attack change here. And looking to democratic alternatives to rapacious monopoly capitalism.
I'll credit some conservative values. But not practice in our increasingly winner take all economy.

And by the way. I taught French history. You are accurate in the short term. But the revolution that was hugely popular at its start did not win. The failures of the dictatorship led to the guillotine for Robespierre in five years and to a somewhat more moderate establishment. In ten years, Napoleon. And the death of a third of France's adult males.




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Pogo, the "differences between leftism and communism" are minimal at best. And the difference between communism and Nazism is the difference between maroon and burgundy. Both are systems of state control of the economy, the press, and everything else. The Communists are honest enough to take it over officially and directly, and the Nazis maintained the fiction of private property while controlling everything about it through rules, regulations, and decrees. It's yours, but it's really theirs. Two different forms of the same thing.

No, socialists and conservatives do NOT have "common assumptions." The only "winner take all economy" is socialism. It is because of market capitalism that fewer people than ever now live in poverty worldwide. Yet, a once- wealthy country like Venezuela is a disaster in which masses live in abject poverty, but the socialist elites live high on the hog. All Socialism really does is lock eveyrone in place and keep people like you and me, let alone hte poor, from getting where they are.

Government cannot provide health care or free education or anything else. There is no such thing as a free lunch, and government produces nothing nor does it have any money except what it takes from us. Nor is it an efficient or equitable channel for delivering goods and services. The only thing it's good at is force. And the more things it tries to do "for the people," the less effectively it does any of them. Then it steps up the use of force to try to "make" it work and to hide its failure.

Government is like a vicious dog. As long as it's on a short leash in its own yard, it're pretty good protection. Once it breaks that leash and starts getting into everything, it becomes a threat to everyone, including its owners.


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Originally Posted by TBP
Pogo, the "differences between leftism and communism" are minimal at best.


I am at a loss to find sufficient expressions of incredulity to properly respond to the above statement.
Canada, Brazil under Lula, all of Western Europe at one time or another. All indistinguishable from Communist countries. Minimal differences. 😂
You really let your politics control what you say with minimal intervention by cerebral processes.

Originally Posted by TBP
And the difference between communism and Nazism is the difference between maroon and burgundy. Both are systems of state control of the economy, the press, and everything else. The Communists are honest enough to take it over officially and directly, and the Nazis maintained the fiction of private property while controlling everything about it through rules, regulations, and decrees. It's yours, but it's really theirs. Two different forms of the same thing.


I could nitpick, but I agree with the thrust of your statement. As long as you do not have the intervention of democracy, the details of how people are controlled - or even occasionally get some share of benefits - are substantially irrelevant.
Military dictatorships are to the benefit of the generals and the aristocracy, but occasionally countries benefited from a lack of chaos. Torture? Murder? Imprisonment? Piffle.
Cubans have the best health and education in most of Latin America, but are stuck in a non-productive economy, particularly since the end of Russian subsidies. And the prisons are still active.
China with its horrors has a substantial counter example. It is called India. And you don't need me to catalog their treatment of dissidents there.

Originally Posted by TBP
No, socialists and conservatives do NOT have "common assumptions." The only "winner take all economy" is socialism.

I guess you are referencing my comment that even conservatives in Europe do not want to undo the network of social welfare in their countries.

Sorry I stepped on your dangling conservative agenda. But it's true. Did you hear that rampant leftist Boris Johnson on British National Health as being “unconquerable” and “the beating heart of this country”?

Nothing is free. It all takes work. Government is there to regulate, protect, and when operating well, to provide the structures that its people require. Private prisons, schools restricted to the hereditary elite and war profiteering are not to the general welfare.
Roads and competent law enforcement are. But we seriously disagree as to the level of what should be seriously regulated or organized by government. Absolutist rhetoric sounds peachy keen, but really isn't useful.


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Government isn't there to provide structures. Its job is to secure and protect liberty. Anything else it does is outside its proper scope. You can take a narrow or broad view of securing liberty, But it is not supposed to form and mold society, as too many people in government want to do.


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War profiteering is not a govt. function. It's an unwanted byproduct of govt.'s primary role-to defend the country.Domestic defense involves a prison system, unfortunately. If it can be done better thru private prisons, build them. Regulate them, that's all-like utilities maybe. Same w/private schools. They have their place; nothing wrong w/them.And w/government's ongoing efforts to impose items in the curriculum that offend large groups of people who then seek alternatives to the public school system, they will continue to have a place, and a growing one.

Capitalism involves competition which has both beneficial and negative impacts.In 1890, we had a Darwinian capitalism that was definitely "winner take all". But now, it's more "winner takes not all but still too much". You need some socialism-or "structures" like social security-to round off the rough edges of that sort of system. Unfortunately, automation and lower-paid foreign competition have led to stagnation of wages for many in this country while the rich pull steadily ahead.Which always amazes me and pisses me off when politicians of the right/left/socialist persuasion go along w/corporations that want to import more foreign labor (both legal and illegal) to cut their costs.And guess who gets screwed on that one.There' has to be a way where workers who put in their 40 per week have a living age.

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Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605189
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My statement was perhaps not clear. War profiteering and private prisons are against the purposes of government. Whatever you might say the purpose of prisons might be: retribution, protection for society, rehabilitation for the benefit of both society and the offender, deterrence, none of these are achieved when profits and cost savings are integral to prison operation. Both logic and the actual experience with private prisons tell us that. Private prison corporations have even lobbied for longer sentences. Why not? They are capitalists and want to make more profits with their product.
And we do not have to debate war profiteering. Again, the regulation of an operation necessary to society is an operation of sound government. Did you know that was how Harry Truman first made a name for him self in the Senate, by heading a committee on profiteering?
Foreign labor is a complex of issues. We benefit by importing medical professionals - to the detriment of their natal countries. And as far as I know, rarely to the detriment of home grown professionals. Mar-a-Lago stretches its profits by employing foreign nationals.The resort, received 78 H-2B visas in 2018-19. and asked for 80 in 2019. They also, in the past, were found to employ undocumented workers. “It’s very, very hard to get people,” he (guess who) explained during the 2016 campaign. “But other hotels do the exact same thing.”
Same thing goes in agriculture and construction. And the money saving goes beyond cheap wages. There is a huge saving on social security, workers comp. and unemployment coverage.
So basically I agree with the thrust and most of your second paragraph. And say that it goes even further.

Private schools? Education actually attracts people who value their product and do their best for their students. Both public and private. But exploitative money making and crap schools abound. As much as I value public schools and their uphill fight, I have few grounds to stand on, having attended private Secondary schools and having sent my kids to Catholic school and then private secondary school. Still many charter and online schools have horrible track records. Again, a purpose of government is to regulate that which is necessary to our society. People who denigrate government and keep it from regulating that which is necessary should live in a cave.


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We do not benefit by importing medical professionals when American healthcare workers are losing their jobs. That's happening right now, and we will be doing this under Pelosi's "stimulus" bill.

One of my problems with President Trump is that Mara-a-Lago employs so many foreign workers when Americans are available to do the job. ESPECIALLY illegals. If they are actively employing illegals, the Trump Organization should be penalized for that. So should every other employer of illegal aliens. And yes, I would include agriculture in that. Instead, the Democrats' stimulus bill prohibits penalizing either illegals or their employers. .

Private schools, on the whole, outperform public schools. Some of the worst schools in the country are inner-city, primarily minority schools. It's not the students -- minority students in private schools such as the famous one in Chicago and charter schools on the whole perform well academically. Those in the traditional public system generally have noticeably less success.

On the day the federal Department of Education was established, we were number two in the world in educational performance. Today, we're 16th. Time to abolish DOE.

The purpose of govenment isn't to "regulate what is necessary in our society." It's to "secure the blessings of liberty." On that score, it has been a massive failure.


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Nice rhetorical quote from the preamble. However what I said was not THE purpose was to "regulate what is necessary to our society" but that was a "A purpose."
If you are going to quote something you should be responsible to quote the entire relevant passage.
"---establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity---"
Notice that bit about promoting the general welfare?
Not that far from regulating that which is necessary.
In conversations about what is needed or preferable it would seem that discussing practicalities , pro and con, is of more use than quoting fine words.

Education? Or health for that matter? No easy solutions. I attended private schools from 9th grade on. My kids attended Catholic and private all the way.
You make the point of lower income (Black) students doing better in private schools. They have the sort of conscious parents who got them there.
My daughter loves the Boston Public school the granddaughter attends. And she has the middle-class eagle eye to know what is going on there.
Short publics to fund charters? Deny stressed schools the support they need? I remember the mayor of DC saying (to Democratic legislators) that charters were vital for his city's kids.
If we payed attention to schools as we do to bailouts that would not have to be true.

Anyway. We disagree, perhaps profoundly, as to what promotes the general welfare. A kid from the neighborhood, who went on to get a Phd just moved back to Sweden with his (met in college) Swedish wife as they agreed that their kids would get better education , health care and social support there. Made me and my best friend, the father and grandfather, very sad for all the obvious reasons. Used to be that people moved here. Where they have little choice they are still trying to do so.

Absolutist rhetoric is not real useful. With this tiny forum, neither, probably, is discussion. But it might be a start.


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The purpose of government is to secure our rights. That's why it exists. It's not to determine who gets what or to set forth some vision of what society "needs" and regulate its way to that vision. We know about societies that do that. They're tyrannies. Police states.

Education is a local and state responsibility. The Federal government had no constitutional authority in that area, and it's been ineffective in that role anyway. State and local officials are much more in touch with the needs of the people in the community. And we need school choice. Some people are well-served by public schools; some, especially those in poorer communities, often aren't. We need to ficx that -- and money is not the cure -- but most importantly, we need to make every parent able to make that choice.

Government money brings government control.

No one should be receiving subsidies. Not corporations, banks, car companies, farmers, anyone. This pandemic can be argued as an exception, since the reason the businesses are closing and jobs are gone is because the government ordered it. Whatever one thinks of those stay-home orders, they caused a lot of jobs and businesses (especially small businesses) to disappear.

None of this is within the scope of the Federal government's constitutional powers. The general welfare clause is not an unlimited grant of power; it's attendant to the enumerated powers, to implementing those powers. if the intent were not to keep the government within the enumerated powers, then why enumerate them?

Government is supposed to be limited, not only as a protection of liberty, but also because we want government to be strong enough and efficient enough to do the thigns it is supposed to do and do them well without being stretched beyond its effective capacities.


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Again with the rhetoric.
Your bit on education describes the American tradition. You said earlier that it was failing, at least in the public sphere. But imply that it should be untouchable.
So action from any level is bad, bad, bad?

Then the assumption that government is the enemy.
"The purpose of government is to secure our rights." From whom? The minions of local government action? Or private action that is allowed by them?
You can state your preferences, but your preferences are just that. Not engraved in either Constitutional history or practice.
A very canny politician, John Marshall worked Marbury vs. Madison into American governmental practice to establish that what the SC says is what is Constitutional.
I hate many of their decisions, particularly recently. For that matter so have court majorities over the years, overruling its own previous decisions.
And of course minorities often oppose what majorities on the court rule. But we act like what they say in the majority is the "Constitution."
I doubt that you will disagree with the consensus that McConnell"s packing of the fed bench, all the way up to the SC will be his lasting legacy. He understands the above. (To our national detriment.)

The logic of being skeptical of government behavior is inescapable, given national, state and local actions over the years. And seeing who is on the subsidy gravy train
I tend to agree with your opinion on the subject. But the way you state your absolutes is rhetoric. You don't even state them as principles of good government.
Again, advice. Argue your opinions. Don't state them as derived from some sort of divine ten commandments.


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My ideas on education are to get a good education for every possible child. Much of public education is failing. Where did I say it should be untouchable? Precisely the opposite.

Excessive government is certainly the enemy of the people. Government exists for certain limited purposes. It is not to run our lives. We can do that perfectly well ourselves.

Marshall was wrong. The constitution is in most aspects very specific. It is not just what the Court says. Suppose that the Court ruled that the Constitution does not allow us to criticize our government or assemble peaceably. Would that be what it says? That is, in fact, exactly contrary to the First Amendment.

Packing the court? How is he packing the courts? There were vacancies. The president and the Senate fulfilled their duty to fill them.

Yes, I am skeptical of the government and the politicians and their behavior. It would be unhealthy not to be. If the people are not skeptical of their government, if they are not holding it in check, then you have the Soviet Union, Red China, or Nazi Germany. The government works for us, and it is limited, and that is as it should be. Certainly, the acts of people like Whitmer have no basis or authority. If we let them get away with just decreeing whatever they want for as long as they want, there will be NO freedom left -- and that's the way they like it.

That is why you need to have the government limited to specific, designated powers. That is how you protect freedom.


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Originally Posted by TBP


Packing the court? How is he packing the courts? There were vacancies. The president and the Senate fulfilled their duty to fill them.
.


Your question ignores the general political consensus to a level that it really isn't worth answering. But it's a rainy day here and I can't get out to plant more flowers. So - -

1. Against all US political history McConnell blocked a SC nominee, Merritt Garland, who had been applauded by politicians and observers of all political stripes - from even getting a hearing.
2.Quoting NPR, "Part of that success is due to the huge number of judicial vacancies that existed when Trump took office — 122. That staggering number is due to the fact that Republicans, who controlled the Senate in the last two years of the Obama presidency, confirmed only two appeals court judges — a record that dates back to the 1800s."
3.Doing away with the "Blue Slip" system, where judicial nominees were approved by both Senators in the state where they would serve. Senators rarely turned down nominees. Generally only when - - -
4.ABA vetting of candidates as to their basic competence (failed). Approval by peers was no longer relevant. And the ABA is notably conservative. It is not the Alliance For Justice. Again, politics and even previous decisions were not at issue. Only experience and competence was judged.
5.Using the Federalist Society list of young (to make them long term) lawyers of consistently far right politics as the list from which to make appointments. NO previous administration has outsourced choice to any private group
to supply the list of potential appointees. Of course groups from the ACLU to the Fed. Society critiqued. But they did not choose.
6. No. 5 is probably the reason that nos. 4 & 5 took place. McConnell et al did not want to have to pay attention to anyone but his political ally.

So. You should give credit to McConnell for his legacy if you approve the results. Me, I got queasy even writing the above. It makes me want to send a check to the Alliance For Justice.


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The courts are not supposed to be political. They're not supposed to respond to any political consensus, real or imagined.

McConnell was completely right to block Garland. Was he somehow entitled to a seat? If there were a nomination this year, I hope he would hold it off until after the first of the year. Let the Supreme Court be an issue, and let the people have their say. Do we want judges who stick to the Constitution, or judges who believe in a "living" Constitution (which is none at all, ultimately)? That's why it was an issue last time and why it may become one this time.

Trump inherited a lot of judicial vacancies, and he moved quickly to fill them, mostly with excellent judges.

What was so sacrosanct about the blue slip? It was just a tradition? Why should that prevail over the will of the whole Senate?

The ABA is extremely biased to the left. They will always downgrade an originalist or similar candidate. It's not a competence rating; it's an ideological rating. Presidents Reagan and Bush ignored it too, and for the same reason.

The president has not chosen from the list he originally presented. The Federalist Society is a strong defender of the Constitution; it's one of the places I would turn for advice on judicial choices.

McConnell has been pretty good on judges. I haven't been a fan on a lot of other things.


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1. True. In the best of all worlds. Which has not been true at any time in the history of the United States.
2.Block? Not to give any hearing on his merits? To follow his (and your) politics to use whatever political mechanism to achieve his partisan ends? Shame. And as anti-democratic (small d) as is possible.
3.Inherited? Invented by McConnell.
4. Okay. You can violate (I looked it up) more than 100 years of precedent for political advantage. Speaks to my point that McConnell does whatever he feels necessary to win.
5. Bullcrap. The ABA is about as hidebound and conservative as is possible. In the large majority. They are dominated by institutional practitioners. Historically and currently. They hurrumph about their prerogatives being violated. But they opposed almost no candidates except the absolutely unqualified.
And Bush and Reagan did submit names to them. Ignored? I honestly do not know how often they ignored the ABA ratings. I do remember a comment from a Trumper that they considered the ABA a pain in the ---.
6. Again. Bullcrap. Name one. Even one, who was not on their list.
So listen to the Federalists. And I would listen to my Oberlin classmate Nan Aron, head and founder of the Alliance For Justice. But selection power? Nope. Not even for her/them.
&. On judges, certainly an honest statement, as much as I disagree. I would be interested in hearing where you are "not a fan."


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Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605248
20/05/2020 09:28
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Had the Senate been Dem in that situation,w/they have allowed a Republican Supreme Court Justice to be considered. I doubt it.

Let me ask you. How do you feel about adding a couple of minority justices to the Sup. Ct. for a total of 11, to make it more "diverse". (which is the excuse they'll use for packing it) ? Which is what some Dems propose and Biden said he'd consider?

Last edited by mikezpen; 20/05/2020 09:30.

Joe Biden has spent his entire life trying to succeed in presidential politics,and now he has. Too bad he’s not there to enjoy it.
Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605254
20/05/2020 19:03
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Doubt if you will. But Garland was a lot less controversial than a good number of candidates over the years.
You would have to assume that it is more of a wild west Senate now, and that the Dems would be just as precedent busting.

Nope. it reeks of course of court packing. I would be much more in favor of a requirement that Justices of a certain age be required to retire. Even though it would do away with my favorite lady in Washington, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg.
Who interestingly was a moderate voice through most of her tenure. Only when the Court bifurcated ideologically, did she start casting hard dissents and attacking the logic of conservative ideological decisions.

And of course it would be totally irrelevant in terms of changing the court. More Trump nominees. More partisan approvals.
Probably McConnell would have changed the rules requiring 60 votes on federal nominees (except for the Supreme Court.) But he didn't have to. In his frustration over blockage of Obama nominees, Harry Reid changed the rules to require a majority Senate approval, including of Federal judges. So now the Federalist Society judicial slate waltzes through. Harry blew it for short term advantage. I doubt that McConnell would not have done the same thing.


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Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605266
21/05/2020 10:48
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I'd put an age limit on judges and also a long term limit of maybe 20 years on ALL federal judges.The courts have way too much power they shouldn't have-Congress is supposed to have the most power but it's handed it over by sitting on its hands.The Supreme Court isn't supposed to make policy, but it does, both good and bad.

Last edited by mikezpen; 21/05/2020 10:50.

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Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: pogo] #605271
21/05/2020 13:59
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Originally Posted by pogo
1.The ABA is about as hidebound and conservative as is possible.


You undoubtedly believe that. But it's just not true. The legal establishment as a whole tends to hve a left-sing bias, and the ABA is quite ideological.

https://www.nationalreview.com/bench-memos/yes-the-aba-is-still-a-left-wing-advocacy-group/

Quote
The ABA has a history of taking liberal positions on issues including abortion, the death penalty, same-sex marriage, affirmative action, and the Second Amendment.


https://www.forbes.com/2009/04/06/originalism-liberal-bias-opinions-columnists-aba.html

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/nov/1/american-bar-association-refers-conservatives-you-/

Quote
American Bar Association evaluators referred to conservatives as “you people” and prodded one of President Trump’s judicial picks on his personal beliefs about abortion before slapping him with the group’s lowest judicial rating, the nominee told Congress on Wednesday.

Leonard Grasz, nominated for the 8th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, received a “not qualified” rating from the ABA after the grilling. He said that during the questioning it became clear the ABA evaluators didn’t like his pro-life stance.

“I was asked repeatedly for my personal opinion on social issues including abortion — it seemed to be a great topic of interest to the reviewer,” Mr. Grasz, an Omaha based lawyer, told the Senate Judiciary Committee.


Quote
Name one. Even one, who was not on their list.


On the original list? (Released almost exactly four years ago, BTW) I'll give you two names: Neil Gorsuch and Brett Kavanaugh.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...trumps-short-list-for-the-supreme-court/

Quote
Steven Colloton of Iowa
Allison Eid of Colorado
Raymond Gruender of Missouri
Thomas Hardiman of Pennsylvania
Raymond Kethledge of Michigan
Joan Larsen of Michigan
Thomas Lee of Utah
William Pryor of Alabama
David Stras of Minnesota
Diane Sykes of Wisconsin
Don Willett of Texas


I would oppose Hardiman, BTW.


Progressives lack compassion and tolerance. Their self-aggrandizement is all that matters.
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