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Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605074
05/05/2020 16:33
05/05/2020 16:33
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I can show you lost of examples of how their leftism, even Marxism, shows up in their courses. You don't see it because you're on the left.

Fascists and progressives got ideas from each other. Fascism is inherently socialist, as it is built on government control of the economy. It maintains the fiction of private property, but through government policy, regulation, high taxes, and other activities, the government completely controls the use of it, thus making the state the de facto owner.

Further, the so-called "alt-right" follows the doctrines of Aleksandr Dugin and his Fourth Political Theory, which is leftist.

Democratic socialism is still socialism. It still rests on redistributionism, which is more akin to the fascist variation of socialism than the communist variation. But all of these are Marxist in origin and at their base. They preach socialist ides, and they put them in practice, to inevitably disastrous results.

#AllSocialistsAreTheSame


Progressives lack compassion and tolerance. Their self-aggrandizement is all that matters.
Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605075
05/05/2020 16:43
05/05/2020 16:43
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Progressives lack compassion and tolerance. Their self-aggrandizement is all that matters.
Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605077
06/05/2020 10:50
06/05/2020 10:50
Joined: Sep 2000
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Near West Side, beautiful Clev...
pogo Offline
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Okay. Let's take a step back.
1. Alex Jones is not on the right because
"Most on the right think he's an idiot; some think he's a plant."
He may indeed be a shrubbery, but the fact that your cohorts (and I) think that he's an idiot does not in any way take away from the fact that he is one of the prime advocates for right wing conspiracy theories and has a huge following.
Including, by the way, Trump. A reality that you did not comment on. Sorry. He's yours.

2. I should deny my own experience at Oberlin because I am of the left and therefore can't see through my biases.
We are talking about an 18-20 year old. Of course I was a well developed leftist at the time I arrived there so I did not notice the insidious leftism that was foisted on me.
Sure there is "leftism" in some courses. As there are all kinds of other isms. My hedonistic roommate at Oberlin got religion. He ended up as a conservative Rabbi. One classmate (Jan Ting) somehow got Republicanism and ended up working for several Republican administrations - and then running for the Senate as the Republican candidate (although when I looked him up I discovered that he had left the party.) It's called education. Left or right educators are not cult leaders. It does not work like that.

3. And your comment about how I do not see pervasive bias in the media?
There is no "Media" other than as a collective noun. Sure there is a pervasive dislike of Trump expressed in articles.
There is also a huge amount of insightful reporting by hard working journalists. And a lot of celebrities think that the administration sucks. Free speech?
But it is the job of actual journalism to investigate and report on the powerful. To attempt to quote Jefferson, if he had to do away with government or the press, he would do away with government.

So believe what you want. But check facts.

I have hesitated from posting links to what I feel to be informative articles because of who posts here and I am strongly of the belief that it would not be read or considered sufficiently to be worth the time.
An example of this would be an article from a few weeks ago in the [b]New Yorker[/b, as certifiably left a journal as exists. It factually discussed how politicians in Seattle listened to actual epidemiologists and lessened the impact
of covid there. It also talks about how they were ignored in the national response - and by mayor deBlasio and Governor Cuomo whose response was to deal politically rather than medically with the crisis until they were forced to react due to the cluster f--- that developed in NY. My point? Sure there is bias. Mostly of choice (and laziness) of what to cover. But blanket dismissal of "The Media" based on attitude? Bushwa.

3. Alexandr Dugin? Since you read the stuff I'll take your word for his being an alt-right poobah. But I doubt that one in a thousand of the members of the alt-right would even recognize the
name. They are creatures of prejudice against those who they are told have and will deny them the right to be what they want to be in a far less than perfect world.
You certainly may reject them as not being of a conservative stripe that you respect. But applied prejudice and lies that have been fostered by politicians and the organized right playing on them was where they came from.

And fascism did indeed develop into states that had many similarities to Soviet & other communism.
But socialism is not communism. And the Michael Harringtons and Dorothy Days of the world looked at Communism and rejected it.
As have the socialists in Europe and elsewhere. Did they succeed in making Nirvana in Europe and elsewhere? No.
Is the average health and access to health care in socialist influenced western Europe better than here? Yup.
Is the increasing stratification and extremes of wealth that have developed here since the tax system and assumptions of government have changed necessary under capitalism?
Nope. You don't have to be redistributionist to look at the figures - and even compare them to that prime anti-capitalist period in this country called the Eisenhower administration.
The Swiss maintain private medicine and social welfare structures in an exceedingly capitalist country. They seem to be doing pretty well.

But ideologues of whatever stripe look to absolutes and cast blame according to their prejudices.


Never give a sucker an even break. - W.C. Fields -
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Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605078
06/05/2020 11:01
06/05/2020 11:01
Joined: Sep 2000
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Near West Side, beautiful Clev...
pogo Offline
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On your articles.
Did you actually read them?
The first two are pretty good and seemingly factual.
The third is interesting, but when even an elderly retired librarian (me) can pick factual holes, selective interpretations and outright distortions it leaves a lot to be desired.


Never give a sucker an even break. - W.C. Fields -
Practiced by Vladimir Putin
Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605079
06/05/2020 11:04
06/05/2020 11:04
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Harrisburg PA.
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Except about baby kidnapping, which is still ongoing. But not reported.


"On Monday, Memorial Day, we will honor those young men and women who did not believe that being an American meant refusing to inconvenience themselves to help their neighbors.." HCR
Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605088
07/05/2020 12:18
07/05/2020 12:18
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Hillary's Vast Right-Wing Cons...
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Hillary's Vast Right-Wing Cons...
A few points on your points, Pogo. You and I both knew the Cold War, so I refer to that.

#2 "Left or right educators are not cult leaders. It does not work like that."
Why are college graduates so leftist? They go in as typical American kids w/minimal knowledge of historical and economic realities and so many come out experts on both w/leftwing world views. Why is that?
Washrag documents the leftward swing among professors and some among students. It's worse now. A couple of kids may have become religious and conservative, Pogo. But how many have gone the other way?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...essors-thats-hurting-students-education/

#3"But socialism is not communism. And the Michael Harringtons and Dorothy Days of the world looked at Communism and rejected it."
Ok, but I never read of their ilk criticizing it either. And I saw the Dems. go continually apeshit over rightist regimes but almost never the Soviet or Chinese regimes that murdered tens of millions of people and forced more and more countries under their boot.They bitched 24-7 over Apartheid while the Soviets murdered hundreds of thousands in Afghanistan and they said nothing.The media ran South Africa into the ground while ignoring coverage of Afghanistan. One republican Senator, Gordon Humphrey (of New Hampshire maybe?) did a study showing the big networks devoted something like 3 minutes a month to Afghanistan. Dems and media went endlessly wacko over Salvadoran "death squads" while ignoring the Sandinistas' shoving of Indian tribes off their land. You saw it.The left just doesn't criticize the left very much. I'm sure you didn't like the Soviet regime. But when you were around your friends talking politics, or Hollywood celebrities spoke, or then major media opined what did you criticize: Stalin,/Kruschev/Brezhnev?, the Berlin Wall?, Mao?, Pol Pot? Or was it the Contras, South Africa, Pinochet, the Greek Colonels, etc.? I can tell you what the Baltimore Sun, Walter Cronkite, Huntley-Brinkley and the other Democrats I was aware of, did.

And when people are constantly fed one side of the story, their views get distorted. The threat our true enemies pose is forgotten.

One big area where I lean toward the left side is income disparity. I do resent efforts to milk the rich; they deserve whatever they can earn legitimately. Ocasio-Cortez statement that there s/be no billionaires is absurd. But many people can't make it decently on current wages either. Those who work their 40 hours per week s/have a decent standard of living. I don't know how you address it but it needs to be. Medical insurance too.

I also don't consider Fascism or Nazism to be leftist. Rightist dictatorships and leftist dictatorships are both terrible. But there are major differences The rightist dictatorship generally leaves you alone if you shut up and allow yourself to be exploited. The exception is the racist aspect which predominates more on the right. Jews weren't left alone in Germany. But that aside,the left does far more. It tries to change the social order and destroy existing institutions-a facet inherent to leftism's desire to change the world. The most destructive is destruction of private property rights as epitomized by agricultural collectivization in Russia, China and Cambodia which killed millions of people. Also attempts to destroy religion. You didn't even have that in Nazi Germany (Jews excepted) as long as the clergy complied.



Last edited by mikezpen; 07/05/2020 12:43.

Joe Biden has spent his entire life trying to succeed in presidential politics,and now he has. Too bad he’s not there to enjoy it.
Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605089
07/05/2020 12:41
07/05/2020 12:41
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Originally Posted by mikezpen
#3"But socialism is not communism. And the Michael Harringtons and Dorothy Days of the world looked at Communism and rejected it."

Ok, but I never read of their ilk criticizing it either.


They weren't communists, but they were anti-anti-Communists. They would spend most of their time criticizing those who attacked Communism. In a sense, those people were mroe dangerous than actual Communists.

The general rule is, "There are no enemies on the left."

#AllSocialistsAreTheSame


Progressives lack compassion and tolerance. Their self-aggrandizement is all that matters.
Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605093
07/05/2020 18:20
07/05/2020 18:20
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 10,415
Near West Side, beautiful Clev...
pogo Offline
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Thanks mike. You may not appreciate this comment from a proud lefty, but I appreciate your responding to comments on an actual rational basis.
To your first comment. Most college students are of a middle class background. When exposed to the reality of US society they are exposed to a new understanding. People of elite & culturally wide backgrounds may have other experiences.
Dorothy Day and Micheal Harrington were not "Ilk". I regret that you never read The Other America. Robert Kennedy did and it supposedly it affected his beliefs about the nature of America and what he should advocate.
Dorothy Day started a movement that you, a few years ago, stated experience with, having seen the Catholic Worker. They talked about America. And felt that what they were responsible for was what was here. At the same time conservatives acted as if
what happened here was terra ingognita.
Most college kids came from a sequestered background, middle class or higher. They have not been exposed to the idea that society is other than natural. Exposure to a new understanding or (Horrors!) leftist analysis can certainly have affects. I was a little different, Living in France with my engineer father, it was clear that we were accorded a status that was not given to the bulk of non-French residents. Why?

The fact that liberals reacted to some outrages and less to others (I suggest that you have a somewhat selective memory) is a point. I am not here to defend liberals.
The fact that the "left" talked Apartheid can be nothing but to their credit. Ditto "Salvadoran death squads". Should they (Dems) have talked Afghanistan? Or China? At a time that realpolitics espoused by Kissinger et al was the Nixon policy? Dem Reps voted for support for the Afghani rebels. You want all reps to vote to espouse your beliefs. And even more, to be on your side always.
"Or was it the Contras, South Africa, Pinochet, the Greek Colonels, etc.? I can tell you what the Baltimore Sun, Walter Cronkite, Huntley-Brinkley and the other Democrats I was aware of, did.."
To dismiss this less than politely, so? Whatever pressure occurred due to representatives or outside was positive.
So the conservatives in Congress did nothing special on your issues either/ Sorry.

To say that whatever their perspective, they should talk about Pol Pot? Actually I remember lot of talk about Cambodia.
Sure the USA never did anything re that genocidal shithead and his regime. People on the left and the right fulminated. The Vietnamese did act.. Whatever their motives, They overthrew the regime.
I never heard a blip of thank you here from left or right.


Never give a sucker an even break. - W.C. Fields -
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Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605094
07/05/2020 20:31
07/05/2020 20:31
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Pogo, I think you and I are in about the same age bracket. Whatever your experience was, things have changed a LOT since the time you and I were college students.


Progressives lack compassion and tolerance. Their self-aggrandizement is all that matters.
Re: Check out this nitwit [Re: mikezpen] #605098
08/05/2020 16:52
08/05/2020 16:52
Joined: Sep 2000
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Near West Side, beautiful Clev...
pogo Offline
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Perhaps quite true.
That is why I quote my kids' experiences. They are now in their 30s.
The point being that a diversity of experience exists.

Before and after my generation people (in the USA) who had the choice and decided to do so concentrated on personal success, work (hopefully) resulting in a a solid income and decent living. That was true of most people, whatever their backgrounds. Whites had more success getting theirs, but it cut across all ethnicities. And social classes. Get a good union job and you had a nice home and income.
No need for college. Just 40 hours wk. - plus overtime.
For that matter, even after hippiedom and alternate lifestyles, Black self awareness and personal awareness (women) there was not have that much long term direct affect on my generation either. But alternatives to previous assumptions were out there. As was the conservative reaction to that lefty ethos.
Anyway. Now the promises and assumptions of justice and opportunity are bubbling out again. As much as I value free speech, accommodation and small d democracy, kids are impatient. As are some of the profs of my kid's generation (& previous)
It ain't a great conspiracy. it's an unfulfilled promise. That again, the words of Robert Zimmerman, should make us aware (I hope) "The times they are a changin."


Never give a sucker an even break. - W.C. Fields -
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